What Is Your Attitude Now Towards the I.C.?

[Paul Spencer]

I've encountered a lot of beleivers who are into the grace message, who are seeking a grace-based church. I've read and posted to discussion boards about this hot topic of several occasions. The notion seemed to be that they needed to be part of a grace fellowship and that they were missing so many things about the church.

I know some of the people on this discussion board are also in that position and have perhaps been out of the I.C. (Institutional Church) for a year or more.

I don't know about you, but spending time with grace believers on Facebook and other social networking sites, as well as soaking in pure grace teaching, has really changed me over the course of this year. I had so many hopes and expectations about my current church, which I considered to be the church of my dreams. I thought that when I would find a superchurch like the one I attened now - my whole life would be miraculously transformed - but it hasn't.

My whole outlook on the I.C. has changed for me now that I know that church is not an obligation. I still go to church but I don't look to the church as being the centre around which my whole Christian experience revolves. I can be a Christian with, or without, church. I suppose you could say I have died to the I.C. I think I'm glad it happened this way because if I had not encountered what I considered to be the "church of my dreams" I would still be seeking that experience and blaming my frustration on the lack of it.

I suppose this could be likened to falling in love with a beautiful woman: you convince yourself that if you just had a relationship with the woman of your dreams, everything would be just wonderful. You meet her and find that she is everything that you expected her to be, at first. But then over time, you realise that she has her faults and that she cannot be made responsible for your sense of security and self-esteem; you cannot always look to her to make decisions for you and to agree with everything you say and believe in. This experience brings you to the realisation that you have to look within yourself for the strength, happiness and wisdom you seek. It's not that the woman is bad or wrong - it's just that she is being the person she was created to be - nothing more, nothing less. But she could be considered to be a bad person if a person comes along and expects her to be something that she was not intended to be. Now, if you were to not meet the woman of your dreams in this way, you could still be holding onto that thought that says, "I'll be happy when..."

Now that you have saturated yourself in the message of grace, and hopefully, grown in grace - do you still find yourself desperately seeking church? Or are you more relaxed about the whole thing now? Perhaps you have no inkling whatsoever to go back to church.

What are your thoughts?

[Jeff Linson]

Paul I may not be the best one to answer this question, since I never have really been "out" of the IC. But you make a point that 8 to ten years ago I proposed to a very large Christian discussion forum. The question was simply, can a believer grow and thrive out side the confines of the IC. I was really surprised at how much the majority depended on the IC for maintaining faith. While I believe we as believers were meant to be communal, we were never meant to base or prop up our faith with the IC.

I believe when one becomes "saturated in the message of grace" as you put it, there will be this hunger that one can't deny and it will only be filled by the fresh bread of Gods grace. For some it will liberate them from the IC, for some it will liberate them from their present local assembly and for others it will unite them as intricate parts of a totally new new church.

I preached in a conservative little church that had a strong heritage of legalism a little over a year ago. Some of the leadership wanted to hear more of this grace message that they had just gotten a glimpse of. I was very gentile and did more of a introductory teaching to the basics of covenant. Used an excessive amount of scripture and attempted to be very gentile. Afterward I was greeted by a very stern older gentleman, that I later found out had been in that church for 40 years, He had one gruff remark for me. He said " young man that is the message that splits a church"

I believe it is sad fact that in our church culture today, the message of Pure grace will divide father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.

[wayne duncan]

wherever pure grace is preached...it's a joy and a delight to be there!

[Andy Gann]

My belief on what church is has changed radically since I was set free by grace through faith. You asked the question 'do you still find yourself desperately seeking church? Or are you more relaxed about the whole thing now?'. My answer is that one, yes, I am WAY more relaxed now :-) and two, I find myself desperately seeking to BE the church - not attend one.

I came to know grace through a Christ centered counseling model called 'The Exchanged Life'. As I have appropriated my identity in Christ I have come to know rest. As I shared the source for my new found peace and joy with others in the last I.C. that I attended, they would look at me with glazed eyes. It was so foreign for them to accept the thought of 'sanctification by faith' - they had been taught that sanctification came through human effort .... Now, I meet in a home fellowship with several other families where we eat dinner and open The Word together. Our evanglism strategy is not to bring people to a building so that a preacher can guide them into saying a prayer but, what we do, is daily deny ourselves and allow Christ to live in us and through us .... as we abide - He will give us opportunity to share life, or better yet, Life, with those who are perishing.

I am not sure that the I.C. can handle pure grace. My understanding of it right now comes fromt he illustration that Jesus gave about wineskins. You can't put new wine into the old windeskin or it will bust. Just like Jeff encountered by the 40 y/o member ... the message could (and probably would) split a church. But, in the end, is our experience as a christian supposed to be church-centric? No, it is to be Christ-centric.

[JM]

For me, I think our attitude towards the church, whether a grace-church or not, should always be loving and positive... If for some reason, I didn't agree with the church I'm in, I could easily go somewhere else... However, the main challenge would be to still speak lovingly and positively about the church I came from. Grace received and understood can produce that kind of outlook towards others, where-ever they are in their walk in Christ.

[Paul Spencer]

I just had these thoughts on the way home from work today.

For years it has been drummed into us that we, as Christians, must be a member of a church. The notion is that we are not proper Christians unless we are “rooted and established” in the church.

It is like saying to a proficient golfer that he must become a member of a golf club – otherwise, he is not a proper golfer. This golfer could have a handicap of, say, 5, and be really good at his game. Perhaps he had professional coaching when he first started. But now, he prefers to play by himself or with a small group of friends. Perhaps he is not too dogmatic about his practice and tends to play golf about twice a month, as the mood takes him.

Let’s say our golfer does join the golf club out of guilt. Then he desperately tries to network with the members of the golf club – because he is told that he has to be relational and form relationships with the other members of the club. What if his love for those people only goes so far? Is it his fault because he is not trying hard enough? Is he going to believe that he is not a proper golfer and that his life has no earthly purpose? What if his friends are golfers, but attend another club? What if his friends are not golfers at all?

I believe the I.C. has become a religious club, which should be optional, but has become mandatory.

Just because we are used to things being a certain way for years and years according to tradition – it does not necessarily mean that things must remain that way indefinitely. It is like a child in a class at school being told to draw a sketch of mummy and daddy. The sketch will be predictable: daddy will have a rectangle for a body whilst mummy will have a triangular body. Both will have spindly lines for arms and legs, with a round head.

Then, someone comes along and draws a sketch of their father: it is a good likeness of the man, with intricate shading. But the children, who are used to seeing sketches of people with spidery-lines – could reject it because it does not conform to the way they are used to doing things.

So come on, let's leave the preschool fingerpainting exercises on Christ and get on with the grand work of art. Grow up in Christ. The basic foundational truths are in place: turning your back on "salvation by self-help" and turning in trust toward God;
Hebrews 6:1 msg

[gregory steven sallee]

fellowship is authentic when you have a bond with others born out of a common understanding. If your beliefs differ from the majority of people you attend church with, you cannot experience fellowship. Our fellowship must be based on the true gospel ( the authentic, original thought of God as He understands it). Grace is Gods way. If this isnt understood properly at a particular congregation, that congregation is not involved in new testament fellowship.

I long to fellowship with people that know God as He is in reality. If there was a regular gathering of people that know Him as He really is near by, I would make every effort to be a part of it. If i do not find this gathering right now, i feel no discomfort that i am not going to a meeting.

[Jimmy Tan]

I think in the last days, the grace revolution is taking place around the world, especially via christian TV broadcasts and the Internet. People's lives are transformed by hearing and believing the message of the cross wherever it is preached, including online grace-based sermons and blogs, because I believe God's methods of reaching out to people for the gospel's sake are not limited to the preaching of the gospel in church buildings or gospel outreach campaigns. My girlfriend received the wonderful gospel of grace when she was watching Pastor Joseph Prince's sermon videos in Youtube in 2007, and she is now blessed fellowshipping with wonderful like-minded, grace-filled brothers and sisters in Christ mainly online, besides attending church services at a grace-based church at times. So it doesn't mean that christians are not "proper christians" if they don't go to a physical location to fellowship with other believers or attend church services or become church members - that notion is only traditional and unscriptural. God is MUCH bigger than our human notions of "church" - as long as the gospel of grace is preached, whether in a physical building or on TV or Internet, etc, "it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save ("sozo" - make whole, heal, bless, prosper, preserve, deliver, protect) those who believe". (1 Corinthians 1:21) God bless you, brother Paul.

[Peter Jenkins]

I'm glad everyone appears to be agreed on the need for community and fellowship. I believe our unity should be one of the main fruits of a grace filled life, like Jesus said: "They will know you are my disciples by your love for one another" Jn13:35

I would voice slight disagreement with some of the points raised though. First of all I'm not sure it's always fair to compare the IC to a golf club, I think there are many congregations where this is not the case. I do think, as Paul Spencer said, far too many christians see the activities of the IC as their whole christian life, which is a real shame. However, I believe in congregations where that may be the case, for us who have a revelation of the "fuller life" it becomes our responsibility to show people the correct way, rather than casually retreat and stop attending.

In a sense I guess I'm advocating dissension where appropriate, of course always in a graceful and not divisive way. Inevitably such opposition will cause division in some congregations, but that is to be expected, as Jeff outlined in his post, and when it comes to a choice between offensive truth or silence or lies, I'm with offensive truth.

Apart from that, I understand the wife analogy to a degree, although I think (as the analogy implies) a lot of it depends on your approach. Like Paul Spencer said, if our expectations are to find fulfillment and answers in a person, or congregation (or job, car etc...) we will always wind up dissatisfied. As much as we are sanctified and perfection is becoming more manifest, only God is fully there, so he is the only one who can satisfy, no human can. So this brings up the point of "consumer mentalities" which many have towards... everything in life. Church and relationships can't be approached with "what can I get?" or "how will they fulfill me?" otherwise we force them to become the very thing we hate them to be - clubs. If, however, we have a "what can I give?" or "I'm fulfilled in God, I can add so much here" attitude, we prevent the church from becoming a bless me club and more a united front of God centred, edifying activity.

My last point is briefly about the notion of online communities as church. Whilst I appreciate they can be very encouraging and uplifting, I do not believe they are in any way a substitute for real world community. On a basic level, you engage only one (sometimes two) of your five physical senses in the digital world, which reduces your God-given capacity to give and receive. On a subtler, but I feel more important level, digital communities allow too much control to the individual. Now I'm not advocating totalitarian leadership, I'm talking about basic accountability and the lack of it digitally. For example, on here, after posting this, I can leave, never return to the site and see your responses. Noone knows where I am, noone (probably) cares too much. Also, while I'm saying this, I can't see your faces, your nods of approval or shakes of disdain, tension in the air or jubilance, I can't hug you and say sorry if I've miscommunicated, nor can you give me a friendly slap if I've stumbled into heresy. You can reply, but I am in complete control of whether I read it, when I read it, how measured my response is, or whether I respond at all. In the real world I don't have those luxuries of control, and that's what makes it real and messy and so much better; when we're totally in control, there's much less room for change.

[JM]

Dude, good post! I agree.

[wayne duncan]

wow, i love this piece! thanks

Wayno

[Paul Spencer]

Great post Peter - I agree with what you say.

There are some anti-I.C. people and websites nowadays that provide some harsh truths and thought-provoking discussions. There are some Christians who seem to have made it their mission in life to rubbish the I.C. Whilst some of what they say is actually true - some of what they say is just opinion and venting frustration and anger at the thought of being lied to for so many years. The same thing goes with things like the Word of Faith movement. Personally, I'm seeking to establish a balanced perspective, free of personal feelings and vendettas.

The church that I go to now is a large, contemporary church that is really quite professional in the way it's run and is fun, sociable and lively. I see the good it does, the people enjoying themselves, forming great relationships, and ultimately, people who would not normally go to church, getting saved. I can't dispute that in any way, shape or form - I can see it working and I'm happy about that.

But I just wonder where I fit in with it all. I would say that I came into this church with a whole lot of insecurities and a works-mentality, as well as a whole lot of expectations. I actually saw serving on team, and even socialising, as a thing that I had to do for God, a duty. Now that I've been focusing on the message of grace, my whole perspective has changed. I’m no longer seeking to prove myself in the church or trying to fulfil some sort of duty. Now I give to, and take from, the church according to the love in my heart. Admittedly, that does not seem to be a great deal at the moment. But my focus has gone from doing things in church to being persuaded of God’s unconditional love for me according to the message of grace. Personally, I’d love to do more in the church – but I’m really not sure what to do at the moment and I don’t feel led to anything in particular. I’m actually still struggling to be truly persuaded that I am right with God, which is the foundation of a sense of security.

I hear you with what you say about the need for real, face-to-face relationships with other believers. The internet is great for meeting believers from all around the world, but as you said, all we see is blocks of text that we can read whenever we log on.

I meet-up with a group of people in church and we usually go for lunch together after church. But I find that the people in my church, although grace-oriented, are still into a mixture of grace and law. They don’t seem to share my passion for the message of grace, which disheartens me. However, a couple of weeks ago there was just myself and a South African couple who went to lunch. We had a great conversation the whole time about grace. Apparently, they had been listening to a lot of Andrew Wommack. So, it seems that this message of grace is spreading – praise God.

[Jeff Linson]

"I’m actually still struggling to be truly persuaded that I am right with God, which is the foundation of a sense of security."

Let me say this, the main message of Pure grace is that you can be no more RIGHT with God than the moment you say yes to Christ. We can get caught in the old habit of seeing our works as a measurement of our relationship with God. Theres nothing satan loves better than getting us back under condemnation, and he will use every thing to do it.

When the message of pure grace begins some times we find that what we have held so dear for so long kinda looses its appeal. That sometimes is the position we have in the IC, mainly because we find that we may have been doing them for all the wrong reasons. And we may need to reformat and do a clean install, sometimes this can take a while and if we are not careful we can allow satan to use this rebuilding time as a chance to slip a little condemnation in on us. I have found that since Grace has started to work in me, I do more now with less effort and much I do accidental.
A few years ago we were part of a successful youth ministry inside of an IC, we worked hard and built a large ministry but we always new it had it's boundaries that it would never go beyond. When the message of grace began to infiltrate my life we started to see things in the IC to diminish. For a long time I let that hinder my growth because I let condemnation be an inroad to satans attack. It wasn't until I decided to just spend some time resting and allowing God to wash me with his word. When this happened, God moved us into an IC where we could grow in grace, and instead of a ministry inside of the IC, God opened doors and offered the opportunity to start a ministry outside the IC, that is growing exponentially with out the boundaries we had before. And now the work is a joy and not labor.

Sometimes a rebuilding process has to take place, rest in it and allow God to wrap his arms around you and comfort you.

Good post Peter