What Is Your Attitude Now Towards the I.C.?

[Paul Spencer]

I've encountered a lot of beleivers who are into the grace message, who are seeking a grace-based church. I've read and posted to discussion boards about this hot topic of several occasions. The notion seemed to be that they needed to be part of a grace fellowship and that they were missing so many things about the church.

I know some of the people on this discussion board are also in that position and have perhaps been out of the I.C. (Institutional Church) for a year or more.

I don't know about you, but spending time with grace believers on Facebook and other social networking sites, as well as soaking in pure grace teaching, has really changed me over the course of this year. I had so many hopes and expectations about my current church, which I considered to be the church of my dreams. I thought that when I would find a superchurch like the one I attened now - my whole life would be miraculously transformed - but it hasn't.

My whole outlook on the I.C. has changed for me now that I know that church is not an obligation. I still go to church but I don't look to the church as being the centre around which my whole Christian experience revolves. I can be a Christian with, or without, church. I suppose you could say I have died to the I.C. I think I'm glad it happened this way because if I had not encountered what I considered to be the "church of my dreams" I would still be seeking that experience and blaming my frustration on the lack of it.

I suppose this could be likened to falling in love with a beautiful woman: you convince yourself that if you just had a relationship with the woman of your dreams, everything would be just wonderful. You meet her and find that she is everything that you expected her to be, at first. But then over time, you realise that she has her faults and that she cannot be made responsible for your sense of security and self-esteem; you cannot always look to her to make decisions for you and to agree with everything you say and believe in. This experience brings you to the realisation that you have to look within yourself for the strength, happiness and wisdom you seek. It's not that the woman is bad or wrong - it's just that she is being the person she was created to be - nothing more, nothing less. But she could be considered to be a bad person if a person comes along and expects her to be something that she was not intended to be. Now, if you were to not meet the woman of your dreams in this way, you could still be holding onto that thought that says, "I'll be happy when..."

Now that you have saturated yourself in the message of grace, and hopefully, grown in grace - do you still find yourself desperately seeking church? Or are you more relaxed about the whole thing now? Perhaps you have no inkling whatsoever to go back to church.

What are your thoughts?

[Jimmy Tan]

Yes, Jeff is right. We can only be made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:21) Righteousness is a gift, not something we earn or deserve by our works or performance. (Romans 5:17)

There is a recent article about online churches http://www.todayonline.com/World/EDC091103-0000059/?Keeping-the-fai... as well as an interesting blog that discusses this topic. http://hfavoured.multiply.com/journal/item/194/Keeping_The_Faith_-_...

Blessings to you all. :)

[Paul Spencer]

Thanks for your post Jeff, that's just right - I could simply not add anything to what you've said - I agree entirely.

Thanks for the link Jimmy - I read the blog entry. I know Stanley, I read his Blogspot blog - I didn't know he was on multiply.

[Jeff Soriano Sr.]

Perhaps we (the Body of Christ) have forgotten and/or neglected the "purpose" of the local church (IC or not). In doing so, we may have failed to benefit from said purpose. Instead of incorporating the "grace" message (and grace lifestyle) within the "life" of a local assembly (IC or not), we now attempt to enjoy one one without the other.

Be blessed and "Go Forward!" (Ex. 14:14,15)

[Jeff Linson]

Jeff
I believe you may have said something profound. I think the lines that define the local assembly have been blurred almost from the beginning. Anytime something is skewed from what God has intended, we all fail to benefit.

Church history from the 1st century and even Paul's letters shows a deviation in the intended path of what and where the local assembly were to be. Christ is established as the head of the church and a few have been gifted to serve as prepares to the labors, but the majority have been called to be the salt and light of the message of the church. But instead of being salt and light we have regressed into participants, viewers, carpet vacuumers, light turner offers, financial marketers and even sponges. We may have exalted the local assembly above the heavenly Kingdom. And if this be the case we all are in a sad place.

If we would put the concept of "grow in grace" as the forefront purpose of our efforts to disciple and equip every one that says yes to Jesus, then before long the grace lifestyle would naturally be a part of every assembly. I am making a prophetic statement that I believe there will be a generation come up that knows nothing but the grace lifestyle, the bondage of Hagar (Gal 4) that has held the church in bondage for so long will be broken.

[wayne duncan]

amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Jeff Soriano Sr.]

Good insight Jeff -

You rightly stated, "We may have exalted the local assembly above the heavenly Kingdom."

Perhaps even worse, we may have disconnected the two altogether. In which case, "we all are in a sad place."

Nonetheless, we have a God who is still married to the backslider. And (if we let Him) will complete the good work in which He has begun. (Phil 1:6)

I find that it's only when I fully experience His mercy (and all that it entails) am I then able to live wholly in His grace.

Be blessed by brother . . . and "Go Forward!"

[Jeff Linson]

Paul says we lack the outward appearance of who we are to be because:
2Pe 1:9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

The word "forgotton" is from two root words that mean "forgot to receive", The truth of our redemption is not subjective, but the ability to live in it IS subjective of the fact whether we accept it or not. We have to receive the "it is finished" before we can live like it is finished. For some reason that is hard for us, much less to the point that WE can be the lifestyle that the IC adopts.

[Jeff Soriano Sr.]

You stated, "We have to receive the "it is finished" before we can live like it is finished. For some reason that is hard for us."

And there in lies the problem. We come from the mindset, mentality, experience(?) or however one wants to look at it . . . that living the life as a Believer (and all that it involves) is "HARD" Nothing could be further than the truth!

Being a Christian and living the Christian life is NOT Hard at all . . .

The fact of the matter is that it is IMPOSSIBLE! . . . unless we let God do it in us, through us, and around us!

For if we think it to be "hard", then we reason within ourselves that . . . "It may be hard, BUT, if I pray a little longer, read the bible a little more, get involved in some ministry, etc. THEN I can do it!"

And if I can do it, then I (conscious or not) can take some credit for it (and worse question why others don't).

It is only when we come to the point in our lives when we admit to the Lord that we just CANNOT do it; Yet, we desire it, we long for it . . .

It is ONLY THEN, that the Holy Spirit will have the freedom to do what He is called to do and transform us into the image of Christ and yes, live in grace. Until then, we keep "trying" in our own strength and find ourselve on a spiritual rollercoaster.

I believe one of the problems facing the Church today is that we preach a new testament life, yet attempt to live it out by old testament means.

"Not by (our) might, not by (our) power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord of hosts!" (Zech 4:6)

Be blessed and "Go Forward!"

[Jeff Linson]

"I believe one of the problems facing the Church today is that we preach a new testament life, yet attempt to live it out by old testament means."

I believe this to be at maybe the very center of the problem in this country. There are a lot of ministries that Claims are grace centeredness, but if you listen very long, you will here white noise in the back ground of the old curse creeping in. Some one that is listening and on guard will hear the noise, but others will just go on unaware that the white noise is sinking into their subconscious, fully comprehensible leading their inner man back into captivity like Paul says it will do "silly woman in the night". Our natural desire is to do something, and the curse fulfills that desire. Satan's divine calling as a result of the curse was that he would feed off of the dust of the earth ALL his life, WE ARE THAT DUST, from it we came, to it we will go.

As Wayne said earlier to the ones ear that is turned to Grace it is a joy to hear. But I wonder why something SO wonderful can set so many on edge. Even the way Paul dealt with the Galatians is in some ways out of character for him, Their regression back under the law set him off so much that he goes as far as to call them "stupid" at one point, not the seasoned words of grace we are used to hearing from him.

Freeing ones self from the venom of the curse takes looking to the finished work constantly (number 21) it doesn't remove the serpents, it just gives one the power to walk on them. When we become aware that the curse has been broken, then life, this life becomes easier. But as long as we are afraid of what seems like impending doom of what has done been paid for it will be a threat and draw to us. Freeing oneself is just as you said realizing we can't do it and then trusting he DID, seeing it finished.

[David Schrammel]

Jeff,

Amen! I hope you will allow me to jump in here. It all goes back to the works mentality of man. It is the 'do good get good, do bad get bad' mentality which permeates our society, family life and foremost our relationship with the LORD. I was meditating on the parable of the sower today, a better name for the parable is the parable of the soil. It all has to do with the type of soil the seeds are sown in. It speaks to me b/c I want that "good" soil so that I will receive the seed and it will produce a hundredfold.

There are many whom Satan is working through to steal the seed and the primary seed is the finished work of Christ. He paid it all and to Him I owe NOTHING at all. You are right we have to continually look on the finished work because the church for the most part is preaching contrary to that message.

Grace and Peace

[Jeff Linson]

David,
Thanks for helping stir some thing with the perspective of "Being" the soil. Most often we view the parable as the soil being those that we present the seed to, it was never my favorite story as such. I found too many giving it as justification to quit on or just avoid those that they figure unfruitful and unworthy the effort.

Today we heard a very insightful message on being the "church" of today. It made reference that the message of grace and favor has been there for eternity, but it has just been blinded, hid until a time such as this. Here is a direct link to the podcast, hope it is a blessing? http://media7.podbean.com/pb/e60ce5c2d72cf367155cfd415039c49f/4af78...

[ray spiak]

Hi Paul, just started posting again on Grace, so sorry for not responding before. I personally don't see a need to go to church,
my son has a home church that my wife and I attend once a month b/c of the distance in traveling. I read my bible and pray daily,my wife and I get fellowship with other christians through social networking. we love our son and desire to support him with his ministry, but I do not at all feel a need to attend the IC and have found that I'm stronger in my walk with the Lord
then when I try to have fellowship with complacent christians, not trying to sound prideful or hollier than thou b/c believe me the Lord has a lot of work still to do in me but don't want to come under the bondage many of the IC's try to put on people.
My wife goes to a church that she considers her home church but does not feel a need to give a certain offering or tithe or a need to attend every week, the pastor is very understanding and open and he knows we help our son with the ministry the Lord has given him.Both my wife and I realize that our walk with the Lord is not dependent upon the IC but upon us as Individuals and a couple to seek the Lord with all our heart and dedicate ourselves and our lives afresh to him each day. It sets us free to Love all the Brethern including ministers in the IC without having high expectations of them. Being able to recieve the fulness of God's Grace makes it easier to extend his wonderful grace to others. grace is a two way street, not a one way street, we musy freely extend God's Love and grace, not just keep it to ourselves, God's wonderful grace was meant to be sharred with everyone. Have a wonderful Christmas and Blessed new year with a deeper revelastion of his Grace. Blessings, Ray